how real are the gearbox problems?

fenj66 · Post by **fenj66** » Mon May 14, 2012 9:14 am

i had my autobox software updated and gear oil and filter changed about a month ago, ive been letting things settle down before writing a report.
the gear changes are indeed a little sweeter than before, but i never thought they were at all bad at the time.
sadly the lurch is still with me, this hasnt changed at all, i had hoped the software update would help - but no.
the fitter said the old gear oil didnt look that bad to him, i had hoped to see it myself but he was so quick it was down the drain pan in 5 minutes!
my gearbox has developed a new fault of sort of hiccuping when changing up from 1st to 2nd (or is it 2nd to 3rd) when pulling away when the box is cold. this soon goes away when warmed up though and im wondering if the box was filled to the correct level - its like when cold there is a slight oil starvation for a split second when pulling away.
i have a gallon of the correct gearbox oil (Â£96) which i intend to do another oil change with soon, as only half the gear oil can be changed in one drain anyway, due to the other half being sat inside the torque converter. when i do this i will be careful to follow procedures to correctly refill the box to correct level.
one half of me wishes i had left the box alone (knowing now the original oil wasnt so bad and there was no crap inside sump), and the other is glad i know the box has had new oil and filter and should be good (hopefully) for many more miles yet!) i will report back again after my own drain and refill...

X5Sport · Post by **X5Sport** » Mon May 14, 2012 10:21 am

[quote="n1k85"]If the gearbox went, how much do you think it would cost to get a replacement fitted?

Would it work out cheaper than taking it somewhere for a refurb?[/quote]

Mine was £2,200 all done. The biggest chunk was the 12.75 hours of labour to remove, strip, rebuild and re-install the box.

The major overhaul repair kit was £250, TC £230, Oil Pump £130, Fluid £100, filter and other parts £90.

When I got the car back it would 'surge' when changing from 2nd to 3rd. The 2nd gear to 3rd gear clutch timings were wrong so the engine was allowed to free rev for a fraction of a second before the 3rd gear engaged properly. Box had to be replaced again and a new Mechatronics Unit fitted (they are £1,200 uncoded so needed the BMW firmware loaded by the local Bosch Auto Specialist).

fenj66 · Post by **fenj66** » Tue May 15, 2012 12:06 pm

[quote=""X5Sport""]When I got the car back it would 'surge' when changing from 2nd to 3rd. The 2nd gear to 3rd gear clutch timings were wrong so the engine was allowed to free rev for a fraction of a second before the 3rd gear engaged properly. Box had to be replaced again and a new Mechatronics Unit fitted (they are Â£1,200 uncoded so needed the BMW firmware loaded by the local Bosch Auto Specialist).[/quote]

that sounds like whats happening to mine now when cold. but my gearbox wasn't stripped down, just had an oil and filter change. so i cant see how how clutch timings would have been affected and in any case it goes away after driving for a couple of miles.
i just need to borrow a car hoist or think of a way to work under my car on the drive to drain/refill oil again and check levels are correct. if that doesnt cure the problem i might ask the garage if they can reset my gearbox software to its original settings as it didn't cure the lurch anyway and might be the cause of this problem.

X5Sport · Post by **X5Sport** » Tue May 15, 2012 12:27 pm

Could have been dirt in one of the hydraulic control valves for the clutches. The repairer decided it was simpler to swap out the box and Mechatronics Unit rather than mess me about any longer. We did try all sorts of other things including the adaption procedure reset, firmware reload and another fluid change.

In the end I think they just decided they'd missed something during the rebuild and a swap was the fastest way to solve the issue. They also changed to TC again to make sure it was new (and natched that engine) and the problem disappeared immediately.

CondorX5 · Post by **CondorX5** » Thu May 17, 2012 7:26 pm

I was worrying about having the gearbox oil changed when hey presto, a leak developed and the box was drained and oil changed during the warranty repair at local main dealers, so am pleased that is done. I think the same ZF box as in the facelift E53s may have been fitted to D2 Audi A8s / S8s and they do seem to feature on the A8 forum with failures........probably a reason why I will try to maintain the BMW warranty as long as I can!

kkodal78 · Post by **kkodal78** » Thu May 17, 2012 9:15 pm

another plus is i am getting 3 year/ 36K miles warranty with this repair on the gearbox for a small fee.

Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk

storminmike · Post by **storminmike** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:21 pm

Sorry to resurrect this but the wife's X5 E53 facelift has that annoying thump when creeping to a standstill. Not all the time, perhaps if it's beaten to it by pulling up a tad swift and it doesn't drop a gear. Difficult to say but it does seem to grabbing for a low gear..1st i'd say. I think it did it once too when going down dale and up hill through a tight and twisty turn..a small thump that was

Tried to so called soft reset and it's still there. Our Indy says he'd look at the software for about £45 whatever that means. Maybe a reset via diagnostic gizmo.

It's spoiling what is a very nice car. One other thing...it's got 285 45 19 all round....shock I know as it has staggered rims. What on earth the previous owner was thinking of I don't know. Rolling diameter seems to be the same as the 255 50 19 it's supposed to have. Would this (by fooling the transmission) cause any of this thump? Long shot I know

Is this fixable is the short answer and what's the scale of cost likely to be?

At 110,00 miles I guess an oil change is out the question

Software £45
Box out change something like valve(s)- £?
Recon box - £?

X5Sport · Post by **X5Sport** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:54 pm

If the rolling dia is the same then it shouldn't matter, or at least I can't see any obvious reason why it should. Odd for it to have that tyre size though? I would expect that to have more of an effect on the tyre wear as the tracking could be affected. If the odd angles are causing an extra load then it might be the source.

I paid £60 for a BMW 15 minute diagnostic check - aka read the fault codes - and it sounds like you're being offered the same.

Gearbox rebuild - factor not less than £1,800 for a complete strip, replace the internal clutches, reassemble and fit.

Valve repairs..? I'm guessing about half that of the box, but it's fiddly and lots of small bits to clean up, so may not need the costly parts but will take time in labour charges. On the 6sp box all the valve gear just unbolts from the bottom of the box (it's inside the oil pan) so the box stays on the car.

storminmike · Post by **storminmike** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:03 pm

[quote="X5Sport"]
If the rolling dia is the same then it shouldn't matter, or at least I can't see any obvious reason why it should. Odd for it to have that tyre size though? I would expect that to have more of an effect on the tyre wear as the tracking could be affected.

I paid £60 for a BMW 15 minute diagnostic check - aka read the fault codes - and it sounds like you're being offered the same.

Gearbox rebuild - factor not less than £1,800 for a complete strip, replace the internal clutches, reassemble and fit.

Valve repairs..? I'm guessing about half that of the box, but it's fiddly and lots of small bits to clean up, so may not need the costly parts but will take time in labour charges. On the 6sp box all the valve gear just unbolts from the bottom of the box so the box stays on the car.
[/quote]

Bottom line...I'd pay to keep the smile on the wifes face. From the above I'd suggest you're saying approx £2,000 or less to put that smile back?

How does one know how far one should go toward that £2,000k given that a fix xould be anywhere from a diagnostic re-boot>partial parts clean say if it is valve (and I don't know what 'm on about) clean and re-fill>£2,000k re-build?

ps...is it the valve bits (whole piece) where people think gunge or bits cause trouble when the fluid is changed? Black art or does the diagnostics give the problem away

stevox5 · Post by **stevox5** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:14 pm

would you say the symptom is like it is thumping into 1st gear when coming to a stop say braking to a junction( harsh gear change into the lower gear) ?

If this is the case and its the only symtom you have ie no juddering or slipping under acceleration this sounds like a softwaer reflash would be the prefered starting point after you have had the fault codes read and possible the oil level checked in the box , however if this description fits your symptoms then I think a software update should sort it.

Good luck

X5Sport · Post by **X5Sport** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:22 pm

Difficult one. A download of the stored fault codes will give a clue of what might be the issue. There were a few versions of the gearbox firmware and that takes about an hour to load into the box, so only a labour charge.

It's one of those escalating fixes, with diminishing returns, but where you start at the cheapest/simpleast and work up. Soft reset first, then read the codes and if no faults try a firmware update as wilkoturbo suggests - they tried that on mine as the first fix when the issues appeared after repair.

If that doesn't work, or faults are stored then it's decision time. Try a fluid & filter change or a new torque converter is about £250 plus the labour to get the box off and put it back, then it's a swap out of the box itself and/or the Mechatronics Unit.

The MU is a separate £1,200 component so if everything is done, as mine was, then you're going to be looking at a worst case scenario of around £3-3.5k all in. But that scenario would only play out if the whole lot were wrecked and yours isn't. Mine had quite literally destroyed itself and needed a complete 'major rebuild kit' installed.

I'm not sure that on mine the MU was actually faulty. It was more likely that one of the clutch packs hadn't gone back together properly and/or the damage to the box caused by the original failure was much worse than seen and left something out of tolerance.

After the original rebuild with my box put back in, the rebuilder didn't do anything other than swap out both the box and MU, and I got the impression that rebuilding the MU part was not something they took on, instead they got a new/remanufactured unit from ZF UK and loaded the BMW code into it.

storminmike · Post by **storminmike** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:09 am

[quote="stevox5"]
would you say the symptom is like it is thumping into 1st gear when coming to a stop say braking to a junction( harsh gear change into the lower gear) ?

If this is the case and its the only symtom you have ie no juddering or slipping under acceleration this sounds like a softwaer reflash would be the prefered starting point after you have had the fault codes read and possible the oil level checked in the box , however if this description fits your symptoms then I think a software update should sort it.

Good luck
[/quote]

Thanks for the reply. Firmly nail on the head, that is the only problem noticed.

"thumping into 1st gear when coming to a stop say braking to a junction( harsh gear change into the lower gear)"

storminmike · Post by **storminmike** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:17 am

[quote="X5Sport"]
Difficult one. A download of the stored fault codes will give a clue of what might be the issue. There were a few versions of the gearbox firmware and that takes about an hour to load into the box, so only a labour charge.

It's one of those escalating fixes, with diminishing returns, but where you start at the cheapest/simpleast and work up. Soft reset first, then read the codes and if no faults try a firmware update as wilkoturbo suggests - they tried that on mine as the first fix when the issues appeared after repair.

If that doesn't work, or faults are stored then it's decision time. Try a fluid & filter change or a new torque converter is about £250 plus the labour to get the box off and put it back, then it's a swap out of the box itself and/or the Mechatronics Unit.

The MU is a separate £1,200 component so if everything is done, as mine was, then you're going to be looking at a worst case scenario of around £3-3.5k all in. But that scenario would only play out if the whole lot were wrecked and yours isn't. Mine had quite literally destroyed itself and needed a complete 'major rebuild kit' installed.

I'm not sure that on mine the MU was actually faulty. It was more likely that one of the clutch packs hadn't gone back together properly and/or the damage to the box caused by the original failure was much worse than seen and left something out of tolerance.

After the original rebuild with my box put back in, the rebuilder didn't do anything other than swap out both the box and MU, and I got the impression that rebuilding the MU part was not something they took on, instead they got a new/remanufactured unit from ZF UK and loaded the BMW code into it.
[/quote]

Well thanks for the reply I guess the MU is the hydraulic brains then with the biggest £££ ticket. I think a trip to the INDY might be in order so as not to exacerbate any more problems. A thump can't be good for any of the transmission

On the "Soft reset" and "firmware" I guess the Soft reset is the pedal press. If the INDY is to do more than just charge me for depressing the pedal then what should I expect under the guise of firmware...and can it go wrong? Is this the SOFTWARE CHANGE by yourself and stevox5 mentioned above...and as an INDY would he have access to that?

X5Sport · Post by **X5Sport** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:04 pm

The MU is indeed the 'brains' of the box and carries both the computer and hydraulic controllers and valves - and yes it's why it's a 'big ticket item'....

Soft reset would also be known as an 'Adaptive Reset' as all it does is clear the adaptive memory that 'learns' your driving style. The box then 'relearns' over the next few days.

A firmware update is just that - a newer version of the code the drives the box itself is loaded. Mine was done by a Bosch Autocentre in Hitchin rather than a BMW Dealer so it must be available to Indy's too. The MU arrived completely blank from ZF UK and had to be loaded. The same basic transmission is used by Jaguar, BMW, Audi, VW, Bentley, Land Rover, Maserati and Ford so the right firmware for the X5 is 'blown in' to a standard MU.

I would have thought that part of the updating process will include an error check to make sure it's gone in properly. If the issue is still there, as mine was, then it's not a computer problem. Auto- transmissions are horribly complex and the car park at A1 Premier Transmissions who did mine was full of all sorts of cars with issues. They specialise in ZF so it was no surprise to see most of the makes listed with broken cars waiting repair - although a little worrying as the Owner of an auto-equipped car.

I personally would MUCH rather have a manual but the Dealer wanted a £10k deposit to make sure I bought the car. Auto it was then....

Jason may be able to help too.

I think that after mine committed mechanical suicide the errors were Clutch Pack B & D Fail, Torque Converter lock-up clutch fail (that was the bit that broke), System Hydraulic Pressure Fail (the oil pump was destroyed by the broken lock-up clutch), and something about a shaft or gear set speed being 'implausible' - whatever that meant?

stevox5 · Post by **stevox5** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:31 pm

The software update can be carried out by a main dealer or a specialist with equipment such as Autologic .
I would get a quote from a main dealer and an independent then decide, the main dealer software will be at the latest level so bear that in mind.
Hth

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